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Post by marblefire on Nov 30, 2011 21:58:06 GMT
It's true that the majority of levels are not done by the veterans. But the veterans make better levels than anyone else; that's why they're the veterans. Quality comes over quantity here. Even though there are tons of level builders, only some of them produce levels worthy of LotM. I wasn't referring to LotM. I was referring to the fact that the veterans are so few in number that you can't blame the decline on them. If everyone else was still making levels, we'd still have a thriving level building community. I'm sure there were some people who wanted to write reviews; just not enough to have a decent LotM. I don't disagree.... My point was that while you might see the judging panel as a fix, it is influenced by the same factors as the old system.
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Post by IsraeliRD on Nov 30, 2011 22:07:01 GMT
But the veterans make better levels than anyone else Define veteran? length of stay here? I would not be in that statistic btw.
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Post by ktbold12345 on Nov 30, 2011 22:13:32 GMT
1) I wasn't exactly talking about LotM winners. By "worthy of LotM" I just meant levels that are really good and of a quality enough to win LotM. There are many level builders, but few produce high-quality levels.
2) Please explain those "factors" you speak of in more detail.
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Post by marblefire on Nov 30, 2011 22:15:43 GMT
1) I was just referring to the amount of levels produced. LotM is a different discussion. 2) The factor being whether people want to write reviews.
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Post by ktbold12345 on Nov 30, 2011 22:28:03 GMT
@matan: By veteran, I mean people who produce excellent levels that often win LotM. Length of stay has nothing to do with it.
1) That's true. I wasn't talking about LotM; just reasons why level building isn't as industrious as it used to be. 2) I don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to review, you don't have to. Just don't join the panel. If you want to review, join the panel. Plus, we seem pretty much decided that the panel will just vote Yes/No. Nothing in depth.
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Post by IsraeliRD on Dec 1, 2011 2:17:44 GMT
Kwill15: I didn't produce a single level that won LotM. Marblefire only produced 3 levels ever, and I only liked his first one the most. CFox also had a LotM level and most of his levels were meh (he also made most MBA levels).
Some of my MBP levels were noted by me to be very replayable (based on leaderboards/youtube appearances) and fun, even if they aren't LotM worthy. I've had people thinking my levels are great (imo my PQ levels are the best I ever produced) but I never won LotM.
IMO the biggest obstacle is being original and creative which is why most people don't try their hand at level design. Making overly difficult level is easy. Making a level that is fun while being creative (not necessary original, this is probably least looked for atm) means that they have to spend time to learn QuArK/Constructor, playtest a lot, pay great attention to details, and likely to spend many hours on a level and they just can't be bothered to go for all this trouble. The fact that most have school and other games (minecraft most prominent) eats even more time (esp. free time). Learning Constructor is probably easy for most, but QuArK users probably have more LotM-quality levels than anyone else, which means that people have to spend time learning a far harder program. The lack of tutorials and the fact that you often need to learn things by yourself eats even more of your time.
IMO it comes out to the point of how much free time you have, whether you can be bothered learning level design, whether you can be creative and think up of good levels that are also fun and above all else: good community feedback. If you get none, then why should you make levels? In a mod you make levels, mod is released, people play your levels. People like the mod? they liked your levels. Long story short, they find it better to do it for a mod than by themselves.
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Post by ktbold12345 on Dec 1, 2011 2:50:23 GMT
In my opinion, the top 3 reasons level building is down: 1) Lack of time. We're growing up, and we don't have time to stay and play MB or build levels. I know I don't. My upcoming level (which is really a very simply-constructed level) has taken me two weeks already, and I have yet to convert it. Between school, homework, drama club, graphic design club, taekwondo practice, working out, and still trying to get 4 meals a day and hours of sleep, I don't have lots of time for level-building. I'll be posting here less in the spring when baseball starts. 2) Lack of good level builders. As I said, the best level builders are either working for PQ (or another mod), or have left the forums. Those that are still around are making good levels, but probably not LotM quality; probably because they use Constructor/Level Editor instead of QuArk, as you said. (myself included, QuArk is too daunting for me at the moment ) 3) Lack of ideas. There have been all kinds of custom levels in the past. It seems that the community is slowing down because they're running low on thinking of original challenges: it's all been done. Not that there no ideas left; I'm sure there are (my new level will be original in a strange way) but most people just don't have enough imagination to find something fun AND original.
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Post by IsraeliRD on Dec 1, 2011 2:52:12 GMT
3) Lack of ideas. There have been all kinds of custom levels in the past. It seems that the community is slowing down because they're running low on thinking of original challenges: it's all been done. Not that there no ideas left; I'm sure there are (my new level will be original in a strange way) but most people just don't have enough imagination to find something fun AND original. I'm working on something cool for my MMG level. I'm still in the planning stage, but in my head this is going well so far.
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Post by ktbold12345 on Dec 1, 2011 3:01:44 GMT
YAY! MY MMG level was probably not too original, but I found it quite fun and replayable, and so did Technostar. I think people will like it.
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Post by marblefire on Dec 1, 2011 3:48:01 GMT
2) I don't see a problem with that. If you don't want to review, you don't have to. Just don't join the panel. If you want to review, join the panel. I must not be making myself clear. Both systems rely on a sizeable group of people who are willing to vote. The old system failed because such a group did not exist. Since such a group does not exist, who would join the panel? If there were people who wanted to join the panel and write reviews, then couldn't we just go back to the old system?
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Rtyh-12
Experienced Marbler
Yay for Windows 8-style avatar!
Posts: 154
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Post by Rtyh-12 on Dec 1, 2011 7:48:55 GMT
Noob ≠ good leader. There is no random chance in mod-making. Luck certainly helps. I never said it was a major factor, but you can't say that it doesn't help at all. A noob can be a good leader. Just because you're new and you have no idea how to make textures/levels/meshes/codes/whatever doesn't mean that you're going to be bad at leading a mod. Lol ---------- Adding this here instead of double posting ----------Personally I'd like to vote. Maybe I'd be alone, though. If the topic is here anyway... why can't we have a system like the old one, but instead of writing reviews, we could simply vote? Of course that would mean unexplained votes, spam votes etc. but it could work as a desperate measure before we have a bigger community (if that'll ever happen).
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Post by IsraeliRD on Dec 1, 2011 11:42:13 GMT
Compared to 2007-2009, our community is bigger.
Unexplained votes/spam votes means you can't tell who voted what, so you can't tell whether the 6, 8 and 9 you see on your level are from Kwill15, myself or dreeka. Did Matan vote an 8, Kwill a 9 and dreeka the 6? Maybe it was dreeka who did the 9? If anything, all that you'll get is that it's probable the highest votes are spam and then your level gets marked down. And then you find out too late dreeka posted the 6. Sucks for you.
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Rtyh-12
Experienced Marbler
Yay for Windows 8-style avatar!
Posts: 154
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Post by Rtyh-12 on Dec 1, 2011 12:52:19 GMT
Wait a second, mods can't see who voted what?
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Post by IsraeliRD on Dec 1, 2011 13:24:08 GMT
No... why do you think reviews were required? <_<
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Rtyh-12
Experienced Marbler
Yay for Windows 8-style avatar!
Posts: 154
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Post by Rtyh-12 on Dec 1, 2011 18:52:16 GMT
I thought mods could do pretty much everything... that's why they're mods, right?
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Post by Pablo on Dec 1, 2011 19:05:51 GMT
Sometimes it's important to have a confidential poll that no one can see the individual votes of.
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